Undocumented Genos2 voices

StylePlayer

I am currently extracting voices from styles for auto compatibility detection and noticed that Genos2 styles contain a bunch of voices that are not listed in the documentation.

Here is a list of hidden voices that appear in factory styles on different keyboards:

sx700
000-104-017
000-110-017
104-000-043
104-001-043
104-002-041
104-003-041
104-004-017
104-042-019

sx900
104-000-042
104-000-044
104-001-043
104-002-041

genos:
008-062-004
008-080-063
008-080-065
008-080-069
008-080-071
008-080-075
008-080-082
008-080-084
008-081-069
008-081-074
008-081-082
008-081-084
008-082-066
008-082-081
104-000-042
104-000-044
104-001-041
104-001-043
104-002-041
104-003-041
104-004-017
104-042-017
104-042-019

genos2 (have all the pictures):
000-105-017
000-108-017
008-054-057
008-062-004
008-080-063
008-080-065
008-080-069
008-080-071
008-080-073
008-080-075
008-080-082
008-080-084
008-080-112
008-081-018
008-081-069
008-081-071
008-081-073
008-081-074
008-081-075
008-081-082
008-081-084
008-081-110
008-081-112
008-081-113
008-082-066
008-082-081
008-082-082
008-082-083
008-082-084
008-082-110
008-083-018
008-083-066
008-083-110
104-000-041
104-000-042
104-000-043
104-000-044
104-001-041
104-001-042
104-001-043
104-001-044
104-002-017
104-002-041
104-003-017
104-003-041
104-004-017
104-042-019
104-043-017
104-045-018
104-046-018

tyros5:
000-104-017
000-104-020
000-105-020
000-106-017
000-106-020
000-107-020
000-108-017
000-108-020
000-109-020
000-110-017
000-110-020
008-080-065
008-080-075
008-081-074
008-081-075
008-082-066
008-082-081
008-083-066
104-000-042
104-000-044
104-001-043
104-002-041
104-004-017
104-006-005
104-008-019
104-009-019
104-012-019
104-013-019
104-014-019
104-015-019
119-000-113

tyros4:
000-104-017
000-106-017
000-108-017
000-110-017
104-004-017

tyros3:
000-104-017
000-106-017
000-108-017
000-110-017
000-113-072
000-114-067
000-120-054
000-121-018
104-004-017

Here is a test tool to switch and compare voices that you can use to select a hidden voice by entering its number and then open a voice selection dialog and look around what else is in that folder:
https://styleplayer.io/tools/yamaha/voice-comparison

If anyone has spare time we should try to name and organize all these voices (not only what's listed here but also other voices inside the hidden folders). If it's too much for you to type you can take pictures of the voice selection screens and send it to contact@styleplayer.io and I will enter them. Having these voices would let us build a more accurate compatibility detector. At the end I will make all these voice lists public for everyone's benefit.

Thank you.

jenygard

I did look, but found no way of searching for voice IDs. The search function could only search for Voice names. I also tried to look for some of them, even in the "Legacy" category, but found none.

StylePlayer

jenygard Interesting, thank you for checking. I am going to put together a test page where you can enter a voice ID and it should switch to it via a midi cable, let's see what it does in this case.

Runner4Fun50

008-081-018 (StandardRock) E.BassRock2
008-054-057 (BigRockBallad) CrescendoTrumpets
008-080-082 (DetroitSoul) Nothing found
008-081-082 (TheBlues) BaritoneSax
008-080-065 (R&B SoulBallad) Nothing found
104-001-044 (SouthernSoul) StringQuartet
104-001-042 (R&B SlowBallad) Nothing found
104-004-017 (R&B Shuffle) RichBars
104-003-017 (60sPsychedelicRock) BalladOrgan

Perhaps it helps a bit.
Nothing found means, checking all style-channels voices of the resp. style didn't have this voice-ID (MSB-LSB-PC)
I checked same style in Genos1, SX900, Tyros5 > but no result

StylePlayer

Runner4Fun50 Awesome, thank you!

Can you please also check if the voice numbers match, so these are not substitutes?

For example, E.BassRock2, is it under 008-065-018 (like in the specs) or under 008-081-018 (from my list)?
Is CrescendoTrumpets under 008-062-057 (specs) or 008-054-057 (my list)?

PS. Yeah I am going to post a test page link here, I feel like there will be many similar cases with unknown voices (perhaps just mistakes during the style creation that went unnoticed since auto substitutes sounded fine).

Runner4Fun50

... may I have the test page too ?

Scaddy

I managed to find this:

https://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/VoiceHistory/YPPV09New%20Panel%20Voices%20in%20GENOS.xlsx

Which lists 008-080-082 - S.Art2!FunkBaritoneSaxSty

But 008-080-065 and 104-001-042 are not listed, so I can't help with those, but if we keep poking around enough, we might find them.

StylePlayer

@Runner4Fun50 @jenygard @Scaddy
Here is a test tool to switch and compare voices:
https://styleplayer.io/tools/yamaha/voice-comparison

See if you can try connecting your Genos via usb, select Out Port 2 (there are instructions on the page), and try to switch to these undocumented voices by pasting their codes into the corresponding input.

If it switches, press on that voice on the screen and see if the voice number matches what you pasted. If it matches then it means these are undocumented voices, if it doesn't match then a style creator probably made a mistake by selecting a wrong bank and these are auto substitutes.

Thank you.

Runner4Fun50

Thanks, your voice ID tester was absolutely great.
I checked your list above and without the last 2 voices, they matched with display information.
In detail:

008-081-018 (StandardRock) E.BassRock2 (S.Art2) > shown on Genos2
008-054-057 (BigRockBallad) CrescendoTrumpets (S.Art2) > shown on Genos2
008-080-082 (DetroitSoul) FunkBaritoneSax (S.Art2) > shown on Genos2
008-081-082 (TheBlues) BaritoneSax (S.Art2) > shown on Genos2
008-080-065 (R&B SoulBallad) MuteTrumpet (S.Art2) > shown on Genos2
104-001-044 (SouthernSoul) > StringQuartet > shown on Genos2
104-001-042 (R&B SlowBallad) > Classic Viola > shown on Genos2
104-004-017 (R&B Shuffle) RichBars > sounded on Genos 2, but not shown on display,
however, not found in the Voices display (neither Legacy nor GM/GM2)
104-003-017 (60er JahrePsychedelicRock) BalladOrgan > sounded on Genos 2, but not shown on display,
however, if searched for "Ballad Organ" Voice it is shown with ID 010-005-001

Would be curios about your feedback.

In General: you did a very, very big job with StylePlayer.io !!!

StylePlayer

Runner4Fun50 Great thank you!
Can you please also confirm if voice numbers match, to make sure these are not substitutes. How to check is - toggle that voice via a test form, then press on it with your finger on your keyboard screen (under Left/R1/R2 voice, whatever channel you used), and check the voice number. That's the biggest mystery.

Runner4Fun50

Answer to confirm your question above by executing your steps described.
StylePlayer

All 008-xxx-xxx ID's are matching the voice numbers existing, no substitutes.
104-001-044 (String Quartet) is a Legacy voice and is no substitute
104-001-042 (ClassicViolas) are shown as 009-034-046 - is part of Emsemble AND Strings
104-004-017 (RichBars) is hidden (as PresetOrganFlutes) and it is not possible to be searched for (no result)
104-003-017 (BalladOrgan) is hidden (as part "Organ". If you search for BalladOrgan, it has the ID 010-005-001

jenygard

If we look at where the voices are placed, we will see that for example 008-081-018 E.BassRock2 are placed in Preset:/Stylevoice/Bass, while the righthand voice E.BassRock2 is placed in Preset: /Bass with ID 008-065-018. So there seems to be a hidden group for internal voices not meant to be used by the keyboard player and therefore not shown in the manual.

StylePlayer

jenygard Hm, so there is a whole separated folder "/Stylevoice" that is not documented? Can you see what else is in that folder, are there a lot of voices in there? Does it allow you to freely navigate through that folder and its subfolders?

jenygard

No, the /Stylevoice folder is normally hidden from the user, You cannot navigate to it via the menu system. Only when your test tool finds a voice, then its visible. It seems like every voice that is meant for the player, is mirrored in /Styleplayer if it is also used in a preset style. I have tested the first four in the list above. I would have shown you in a screenshot, but the "add an image" function does not seem to work?

StylePlayer

The part that is not clear to me is what inside the /Stylevoice folder. I understand you cannot navigate to it normally, but once you used the test tool and manually touched that voice it drops you into that folder so you can look around. What does that folder contain exactly?

jenygard It seems like every voice that is meant for the player, is mirrored in /Styleplayer if it is also used in a preset style.

Does it mean /Stylevoice contains a copy of every single regular voice (1000+) named the same, but numbered differently or something? For example, if you go to the Piano subfolder under /Stylevoice can you please list a few samples of voice names along with the voice numbers that are shown here. Does it contain the full list of pianos from a regular folder?

I don't really understand the purpose of this separation, is this unique to Genos2 or other keyboards have the same hidden folder /Stylevoice? Why do they have hidden copies of the same voices, are they exactly the same sounding or modified?

Thank you.

Runner4Fun50

What jenygard writes, I confirm that fully.
I didn't mention it. And in addition I checked the voices with voices as part of the XG-/GM-/GM2-groups too. Those groups are hidden. You can't find those voices within the voice folders shown on the display. But they are existing. And it could be the two Organ voices are hidden too and allows open styles which include those elder voices from other Yamaha keyboards, but not all of them, only a part.

jenygard

StylePlayer
The /Stylevoice folder is subdivided into instruments groups, corresponding to the preset instrument groups (Bass, Strings, Brass etc.), and can contain many voices, but fewer than the visible presets. They are named exactly the same, but the IDs are different, sometimes only one of the groups of 3 numbers are changed, but there isn't a clear pattern. I can't access /Stylevoice/Piano, because there is no piano among your example IDs.
The reason for this must be that only voices that are used in preset styles are duplicated to /Stylevoice/(subgroup), and that each voice is altered in a way to fit the purpose. Playing the voice in a style must be different to playing it as a righthand or lefthand voice. People that own other keyboards should be able to tell if this is universal to Yamaha keyboards.

StylePlayer

The forum doesn't support direct image uploads (that's a can of worms with lots of legal and maintenance issues), but you can upload your images to numerous online image hosting sites like https://imgur.com/upload and then attach a link to it.

jenygard

StylePlayer
I have my own homepage that can host pictures, so take a look at two pictures of my external screen, shown a couple of examples. The ClassicViola has no counterpart among the ordinary String voices, only plural ClassicViolas. The FunkBarytonSax har counterparts in Woodwind and Ensembleparts. If you compare to the Voice list in the manual, you should see that there are fewer voices in /Stylevoice/Strings and /Stylevoice/Woodwind.

Go to https://www.jenygard.net/Other/Genos-stuff/n-xDGpPq
(The adress is safe, it is hosted on Smugmug with my own domainadress 😀)

StylePlayer

jenygard Awesome, thank you so much!